ROUGH EDITED COPY

 INSTITUTE FOR COMMUNITY INCLUSION
INFORMED CHOICE:  IT’S MORE THAN JUST ASKING
Tuesday, November 17, 2020
9:00 pm – 10:30 pm E.S.T  
REMOTE CART CAPTIONING PROVIDED BY:
ALTERNATIVE COMMUNICATION SERVICES

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Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) captioning is provided to facilitate communication accessibility.  CART captioning and this realtime file may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.

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>> CAPTIONER: Standing by for event to begin.

>> LARA ENEIN: We will get started in a few minutes.  We are waiting for a few more people to come in.  You are muted as you get on.  Everyone, you are all muted at this point.  If you want to ask a question you can put it in the chat box or unmute yourself.  Captioning is available.  It has already started.  Just click on the CC button on the bottom of your screen.  We will be recording the session and as soon as David gets started I will return the recording on.

>> DAVID HOFF: Welcome, everybody.  On behalf of the Institute for Community Inclusion and my trusty colleague Lara Enein.  I'm so glad you guys joined us this morning on a webinar for informed choice in employment.  A few logistical things.  I did send this morning a few minutes ago a zip file with handouts.  If you had any issues with that let me know.  I will put the handouts and will give it a few more minutes and will put the handouts in the chat as well.  I was having trouble opening the zip file myself.  Let us know if you have any issues there.  We also put the handouts in the chat.  Let me put slides on the screen and we will get started.  You should be able to see my slides.  If during the webinar any logistical issues, any sound issues, if you can't see what is on the screen, please speak up because I will tell you as I as the presenter assume that everything is fine as well as Lara unless we hear differently.  

As I said, I am David Hoff with the Institute for Community Inclusion UMass Boston.  These days, like many of us, working from my house.  So you can find me by my [indiscernible by captioner] or you can reach me at my contact information on the screen.  I welcome your questions or comments.  As always, if you have any follow up questions let us know.  That is what we are here for.  This presentation is being provided with the support of the Massachusetts Department of Developmental Services, DDS, through Employment First Massachusetts.  So we thank DDS very much for their support for this effort.  Some logistics.  You are muted.  We muted everybody when they come in but if you are speaking and stop speaking please mute yourself for everybody's comfort.  You can post questions and comments in the chat.  If you want to say something verbally.  

There are a number of places here where I will ask people for feedback and I really would appreciate, unless you want to listen to me talk for the next hour and a half, which anybody who knows me that I am fully capable of, but it would be great to hear some other voices either by chat or in response to the issues and things that we are going to talk about.  We really want you to participate and we want to hear your feedback because we all want from each other in terms of a good learning environment.  So please participate.  As Lara mentioned the webinar is being recorded.  The slides will be available afterwards.  Closed captioning also can be activated via the closed captioning button on the screen.  I just want to mention real quick.  Our Employment First Massachusetts as some folks are familiar with that site.  I will show you real quick.  Bear with me as I bring it up on the screen.  I did want to give you a quick plug.  Here is our website.  I assume you are familiar with it but we have a great resource library.  We also have lots of great stuff.  And our training calendar.  This is our training calendar.  Coming up and we have an ongoing series of trainings.  Keep an eye on this.  I assume you found out about this through our email our website.  But this is where all of our information is kept.  Lara, anything to add?  

>> LARA ENEIN: I don't think so.

>> DAVID HOFF: We will continue offering training at no charge.  Thanks to DDS.  Also, publication for today which I am going to go through in a second.  This is available right now on our homepage at communityinclusion.org, which is a website which is soon to be launched.  Stay tuned for that one.  We are going to completely relaunch our website in the near future.  This is a publication that I wrote with my colleague Nick Holtz.  And this is really our guide for today.  A lot of what we are going to talk about today in much more detail with a list of resources is in this publication.  It was sent to you earlier today.  It's also on our website.  

I do just want to go through it real quick.  Our intent here with putting this publication together was to make sure that there really was a lot of this came out of the idea that there was always this idea of what is choice?  What is informed choice?  The term choice gets used a lot in our field.  So we really felt like there was a need so we felt like we needed a publication or a guide.  I think I just realized, I don't think I sent this to you guys.  Here is the publication.  I'm going to go through the sections real quick and a lot of this we will hit on but it starts up with an overview of informed choice.  What does it mean in terms of employment?  A little bit about publicly funded services and what choices are allowed, not allowed.  Talking about employment choice and informed choice.  The idea that informed choice is not a one-time thing.  Is an ongoing habit.  And some of the challenges we are dealing with in terms of people’s lives, which we are going to talk about.  Also, why this matters.  We will talk about that this morning.  

We -- this is the meat of it.  This is a step-by-step process which we will be going through and the five steps of informed choice.  Then as we move along here a little bit about families and guardians and all of that kind of stuff.  This chart, which you might find really helpful, responding to common objections to employment, which is something I will cover today.  A little bit about transition and informed choice.  Then as we wrap up here a little bit about your programs, programmatic considerations and then a whole series of resources and references.  Again, a lot of detail here beyond what we are going to talk about today, but certainly take a look at this guide.  And as I said, we will make sure everybody gets it.  That is our publication.  This is my friend Stirling Peoples.  Stirling lives in Vermont.  Stirling is a terrific woman who has done some neat stuff with her life.  

She works for the City of Vermont and she also works for Green Mountain Self Advocates and she said that listen to our dreams about having a job.  We want to work just like others.  And that is what informed choice is really all about.  People with disabilities, people with significant disabilities want to work like everybody else.  So it is really important to listen to their dreams.  And informed choice is about listening to people's dreams about having a job and making those dreams a reality.  I want to start with this as getting the discussion going.  Feel free to put something on the chat or verbally, raise your hand.  Speaking of you personally, what was the decision regarding your current job based on?  Why did you take your current job?  What led to that decision?  What informs that decision?  And also, what was the decision regarding your career based on?  A combination of the two.  I would love to hear your thoughts about why you are doing what you're doing right now in terms of a job and career.  What led to that?  I would give you a few seconds to respond.

>> : Hi, David.  May I respond?  I knew -- I work with new stop brain injury center for traumatic brain injuries so I research that and saw that that was an up and coming environment and I became an employment coordinator that's the new stop -- it's out of Brockton, so I help people that have brain injuries find jobs.

>> DAVID HOFF: What led to that interest or what formed that interest, if you don't mind saying?

>> : I used to work at seven hills up at the CBD programs [indiscernible by captioner] programs.  They were putting people with brain injuries into that population mix.  And it really wasn't a good fit because a lot of the participants or clients didn't feel they belonged there.  So this is a niche where we just -- you need to have a brain injury to be able to come to the center.  And again, I help people find jobs.

>> DAVID HOFF: Thank you, Denise.  Obviously, at your experience led to this, your past experience led to help you inform your decision.  Great.  Thank you.  [indiscernible by captioner] you want to help people and there is a passion there.  And Molly says we define ourselves so much by our employment.  I think everyone should have opportunity find fulfillment for employment if they want to.  Yes.  It's about fulfilling yourself, what is your passion?  Wanting to help individuals be employed and happy.  That is a sense of mission.  Mark notes that he has two family members with disabilities.  Currently you're working with high school transition.  Teaching has always been critical.  I'm sure you had career goals that you wanted to fill.  

Jessica also knows about helping people supporting them to realize that anything is possible.  And then Leah notes that after working with some disabled students in the classroom I really wanted to help with the next steps after graduation to help them become independent, functioning adults.  So again, past experience said okay.  That is that.  I don't know if anybody else wants to verbally share, but I think the point is fairly obvious that we all [indiscernible by captioner] our experiences, we make decisions in  life based on our experiences and what has happened in the past and what interests us.  I can tell you myself personally I started out in this world planning to work in a hotel as a hospitality manager.  That was my goal at the age of 16, 17, 18, 21.  I'm hardly doing that today.  So I had an interesting journey, which I won't bore you with the details.  But I had some experiences I liked.  I had some experiences I didn't like.  And I had made some decisions to change careers and go back to school.  But based on those experiences I think learning all of this is sometimes we have enjoyed and have passion for but some say I don't want to do this anymore.  I want to do something different.  

I have learned from this.  So it is really -- we are the sum of our experiences.  Unfortunately, the reality for many people with disabilities as they have a very limited experience growing up.  Limited opportunities for decision-making and it really creates real challenges in terms of them being able to make informed choices and they also, unfortunately, live within communities in societies and families, this is the -- I didn't mean unfortunate, but I think layman societies and families and programs which are really, really well intended but often we unintentionally remove their typical decision-making that is part of being a teenager and an adult.  So it's really important that we recognize some of the challenges that we are dealing with.  Particularly with adults.  I think things have really changed and evolved with the self-advocacy moment is wonderful.  

And we certainly have a different generation now.  But I think we also have to realize that the way that many people with disabilities have been treated in their society has created real challenges in terms of really making choices and decisions.  As we move on, we also need to recognize that choices are not just an A and B choice.  I think there's also this challenge [indiscernible by captioner] that is not like I choose list A or list B.  Because I think there's so much this idea of when they hear the term choice often, frankly, misused in our field.  We gave them a choice.  We said you want to work at McDonald's or do you want to work at Target?  Well, that's an A and B choice.  Or do you want to -- do you want to work or not work?  Which is really not well defined.  So we have to recognize that the choices that we all make are not just A and B, list A and list B, and really our choices need to be informed and we need to have control.  Lara, can you mute somebody?  What makes a choice an informed choice?  We already talked about some of this already.  It is experience.  

Certainly it helps in terms of that, in terms of -- it's part of a guides informed choice.  Experience, information, all of those things that allow us, even though sometimes we are making these choices and not realizing we are making an informed choice, but they are very strategic pieces of information and experiences that are important.  So we not just making a random choice or choice based on what other people want.  But that we are making a choice that we are well informed about the choices that we are going to make.  That is what we are going to talk about over the next hour or so.  In terms of the definition of informed choice.  This is the definition that we have and we think it is a pretty good one.  It is the process of choosing from options, so you have a variety of things you're choosing from, based on accurate information.  So the information must be accurate.  It's not just any information but the information is accurate.  So you're getting information.  Also knowledge, that you are gaining knowledge.  And then experiences as well.  And all three of those elements are really important.  We have information, we have knowledge, and we have experience.  And requires informed choice requires skills in making choices.  

And as I said already the reality of [indiscernible by captioner] my own experience doing direct support I was actually first started in this field in 1991 and the thing that I was -- and I work with a lot of folks coming out of institutional or coming up in institutional environments and one of the things I'm struck by is these are a bunch of people and none of them can make a decision.  Every time I asked what you want to do they had very little, frankly, experience to base decisions on because they had only grown up in very institutional type environments.  They had limited opportunities to explore life and do things.  The second thing that I was struck by was they always deferred to staff.  The staff will let me do that.  The staff said I can do this.  It was like they had grown up in this program world, the institutional world, where they defer to others.  Or in other cases my mother wouldn't let me do this, my family wouldn't let me do this.  

And I'm like, you are an adult.  You should be able to make your own decisions.  So we recognize this.  We said earlier a lot of this was well intended.  This is about caring for people who are vulnerable.  Caring for people who frankly don't always make the best decisions necessarily or have challenges.  But we cannot deny the right to make choices.  And also make mistakes.  And you only get really good at making choices, hopefully, in life is through developing skills and choice making.  Which is why I am a very big fan, personally, of really good self-advocacy or self-determination during transition which is part of the workforce innovation [indiscernible by captioner] for pre-implement transition services.  Because we learn how to make choices starting at an early age.  Think of any child who is at an early age deciding do you want chocolate or vanilla ice cream?  That is a pretty simple choice.  

And that choice making evolves over time to fairly more complex decisions.  Where do you want to go to school?  Where do you want to go to career?  Who do you want to partner with?  Who do want to date?  All of these, where do you want to live?  Those are much more complex decisions.  But it needs to start early with simple choices so people get experience and over time that they have the opportunities to make more and more complex choices.  It's very much of eight developmental process.  I'm not an expert on child and adult development but the challenge we've got with many adults is if they did not get experience and develop skills in choice making as a child and as a teenager developing those skills as adults is possible but it's challenging because you have your own sense of self and own sense of how you view the world.  I don't know if anybody has any comments or questions on that.  Feedback on that.  As we know, we need experience to draw on and if you have had a life of limited experience, which, again, is all too often the case of people with significant disabilities, particularly in terms of employment.  

People get to 30 years old and have never had a paying job or 40 years old or have never worked outside in terms of outside in community, in an integrated employment setting.  Even when you get to be 21 too many students are still coming through transition with no work experience and this is a shocking piece of research but the research backs this up completely.  That those young people have work experience while in school are better prepared and have better chances for success as an adult.  You don't do million-dollar research is to figure that out.  So experience as a young person is really important.  But even if they don't have it how do we help people have experience as an adult that they can grow on and make decisions.  We will talk more about that.  We also need a culture that embraces employment.  What I mean that is a culture programmatically.  So you all work for school or programs or service providers and it is really important that within that that informed choice is embraced.  And similarly we will talk about families and guardians and it gets really complicated sometimes with families, in particular.  

But again, the family needs to embrace informed choice.  The family member has a right to make a choice and make a choice that is informed.  That means that we don't have staff.  We get staff out of really bad habits, including yours truly, because I was in this habit as well.  Of suddenly making decisions on behalf of of the folks.  And sometimes it's not even subtly so.  We are making decisions on people spend their days and frankly, where they work and what they do.  And we don't need to do that but I think, hopefully, I think we need to check ourselves sometimes.  We don't realize we are doing it but we are doing it because we are in positions of authority and see these people’s lives but even the most benign authority because we think I am facilitating, I'm supporting, I'm guiding, well guess what?  Sometimes we are doing more than that.  And we have to be thoughtful and careful about that.  I think this is something that we need to continuously challenge ourselves on.  Are we really allowing this person to make choices and make informed choices?  

The other thing is if we are going to have informed choice we need a tolerance for reasonable risk and failures.  Again, as I said already, we are working with folks oftentimes who can be at risk in the community.  That we need to be thoughtful.  And I think we actually, in my own personal view, I think we need to raise our tolerance for risk at times.  We don't want to put people in physical danger of any sort.  But I think we tend to err to the side of being overly protective way too often.  We also need to be thoughtful.  We don't want to put people in situations that are going to harm them.  I think that is a never ending balance in terms of that.  But we have to say one of David Hoff rules is if there's no danger of somebody getting hurt or dying most risks are okay.  So somebody trys a job and they fail.  They tried it, they got experience, let's move on.  A lot of us have failed in jobs.  A lot of us have lost jobs because part of life.  We don't want to set people up for failure but we learn as much from our failures, things didn't quite work out, as we do from our successes.  And I love this quote from Andrea LaBonte and she was an impact producer for Crip Camp, if you have not seen Crip Camp I highly recommend it.  It is on Netflix.  Is a great documentary.  About the disability rights movement.  I learned a lot from watching it.  That is my little documentary film plug.  

But she said that everybody else in life gets the opportunity to make mistakes.  You go out on your own but because disabled people often are sheltered and other people are making decisions for us we don't have those opportunities to live completely whole in that way.  It's a wonderful quote.  This is a woman who uses a wheelchair and has significant disabilities and she said point blank, we all have the right to make mistakes.  And it is okay.  And other people should not be making decisions for them.  As we think about decision-making, as we think about decisions that people with disability is make in their lives, that we all make in our lives, this is a fairly complex effort.  And we need to recognize the complexities and the variables within this.  So we need to recognize that we are talking about first off we talked about experience.  Yes, that's a big part of decision-making.  And one of the first things I learned with I got my Masters in social work is we need to recognize that we all are sums of our experience.  And that we need to recognize that everybody, we cannot be saying everybody does everything from our perspective, we need to try to see things from the other persons perspective as best as we can because their experience is not your experience and vice versa.  Again, it's experience, but there's also authority figures in our life.  We have parents, we have bosses, we have staff.  And lot of people with disabilities have staff that support them.  We have physicians, doctors, we have people who in society who are considered authority figures.  

So we often are trying to please or frankly in some cases we sort of have to abide by what they want.  So that is certainly going to influence the choices that we make.  And the other things are social expectations.  There are certain things that are social expectable and so much things that are not so much so.  What I love about 2020 compared to when I grew up that you can, I think in many ways, that there is the social expectations are much more diverse in so many ways.  Relationships is, obviously, one.  Sexual identity, all of those things but just in terms of how people can look.  I grew up in the 1960s and certainly in the suburban town of New Jersey I grew up in all this fighting about peoples length of hair and things like that.  You see people with short hair, long hair, tattoos, piercings, and frankly I think that is cool.  If that works for you.  But I think when people get really out there with some of that stuff we have to realize that there's going to be social expectations in certain cultures in certain places and that will not be acceptable.  But it's fine if you want to have your ten different colors and piercings in all sorts of tattoos but there are certain workplaces, for example, that that is not going to be as acceptable even in 2020.  

Similarly, with societal expectations about what is expected of people, what is expected of adults.  I think one of the challenges we have had people with disabilities in terms of employment most adults are expected to work and yet we are trying to change that societal expectation for people with disabilities as well.  That is where the whole employment first movement comes up your societal expectation as a person with a disability is that you can't work.  That creates some challenges and some dilemmas.  And certainly, peers.  They are highly influential.  What do your peers think?  What do they expect?  We can tell you as a former teenage boy peers can have all sorts of influence and not always in a good way.  Even as an adult sometimes.  But peers do have an enormous influence and we are very much into pleasing our peers and making them happy and we want friends.  So we've just got to recognize as we work people through this idea of informed choice there is a lot of dynamics into play that we need to recognize.  Any comments on that?  Questions?  Some of you may recognize this graphic here.  This is from let's make a deal.  You might remember it let's make a deal.  I haven't watched the current let's make a deal but the one I remember is the one hosted by a gentleman named Monty Hall who died just a couple years ago.  You could choose between door number one, door number two, or door number three.  And I think too often this is what we have done in terms of people with disabilities.  In a lot of the programs and services.  That we have.  And I don't think this is informed choice practices uninformed choice.  

So we have staff create a calendar for people in terms of activities.  And ask individuals to choose from that calendar of activities.  Rather than starting with the individual and what they want and what interests them.  We've got these calendar of activities, choose one, two, or three.  To me, that is uninformed choice.  Another example is saying to people do you want to spend your day -- in the old days [indiscernible by captioner] or be on the enclave in the community doing cleaning?  Again, that is just two choices.  You are basically really limiting people what they can do and the possibility of choices and things like that.  So we've just got to be careful that as programs and services -- and I've seen this in schools.  And again, if some of you are doing this I don't mean to beat you up but I think you need to recognize.  I've seen transition programs which at one time this was best practice.  We have three sites in the community where students get work experience, they choose one, two, or three and we rotate them through.  And again, early on first work experience let's get them a little experience in the community trying some things.  I'm not going to argue completely against that.  But that cannot be the end of it.  

That might be the quick let's get some folks and get some quick tasks in different places in the community, they have jobs they like and don't like but we have to move on from that.  It can't be just get to choose from one, two, three options.  Because what options did we have as teenagers and adults?  Lots of different possibility jobs.  Lots of different possibilities of careers.  Yes, a lot of teenagers -- as food, retail, places like that but we certainly expand beyond that fairly quickly.  We've got to be careful that we are not to just doing uninformed choices or just limited options based on staff and based on what the program wants.  Comments or questions on that?  I think this is the one I get a lot and this is where I get frustrated.  I always hear this, we ask them if they want to work in the community and they said no.  So that is that.  We just asked them, do you want to work in the community, they said no, and that is not an informed choice.  I cannot tell you the number of times I have seen this and had discussions with programs and families and individuals.  All of these people I don't want to work in the community.  What is your decision being based on?  If you've never worked, if you don't have enough experience to inform that choice.  So it is more than just verbally asking people do you want to in the community?  One thing and I want to throw this one out there because I get this one lot.  People can just do whatever they want.  So it is informed choice mean you can do everything you want?  Does that mean you can do whatever you want?  What do people think about that?  Thoughts on that?  Throw comments and/or share something verbally.  Can you do whatever you want?

>> : It's Michelle Cutting.  I couldn't find my mute button.  I think, obviously, we can all do whatever we want whenever we want because of life.  We may be limited in our options of where we can work based on how we need to get there or the types of jobs they offer.  And also, because of schedules or other obligations and I think some of that is similar for some of the folks that we support.  Obviously, I think a lot of us probably participate in limiting people based on our own programs needs and scheduling issues without really being mindful of it at times.  But those are things that you just push against and say but why not?  Why not?

>> DAVID HOFF: I think that is a really good point.  People are putting this in the chat as well.  Obviously, none of us get to do whatever we want.  These are discussions I've had with individuals sometimes that I have the right to that, I have the choice.  That the other extreme of I don't have any choices but don't understand what the parameters of choice making.  You are denying the rights.  I've heard that from a few people now.  We all have limitations in terms of society, in terms of we can do things illegally or we are not supposed to.  In terms of our own skills and abilities.  And terms of what supports we have and can be provided in all of those things progressing to the point you make which I think is really important and which is a key theme here is we also need to look at what we are doing programmatically.  Are we limiting choices more than we should?  We should always be contemplating that and thinking about that.  There are programmatic challenges we are dealing with all of the time.  

Resources and staff and things like that.  Let me look at the chat real quick.  We have the right to do things the responsibility.  It's about rights and responsibilities.  And things are realistic.  There are great images between dreams and goals.  You have the right to do something illegal you have to deal the consequences.  Yes, there are consequences to choices we make.  We need to understand those consequences and part of helping people through choices is saying there are consequences to the choices you are making.  Whether it's a choice you make not to work or work or this kind of job or, frankly, I want to work these hours and not work these hours.  Whatever it might be.  So that is really important.  And to recognize that we can't just do whatever we want.  Nor can people with disabilities can't and certainly we cannot.  So it is no different.  And this is also where I've gotten into these ridiculous debates with people about things like choice about we can't just allow people to do whatever they want.  We're not talking about letting them do whatever they want.  Allowing them to do, have the same rights to choice as everyone else.  That is what it is about.  And there are a ton of factors that go into limiting our choices but, again, as I said from the beginning, people with disabilities their choices have been much more limited than the average person.

>> LARA ENEIN: Nathan has his hand up.  Nathan, did you want to unmute and say something?

>> : That would be great if I could.  I think this has been a wonderful conversation.  I teach -- my main job is human rights so I hear this conversation around the rights.  I have the right to do something or you are violating my rights based on these barriers.  What I find is there are real actual barriers to some options that folks have.  And then their attitudinal barriers and I think our work is to really dig into those attitudinal barriers and those barriers that are systematic.  And then are we helping folks?  Are we as a service delivery system creating space for folks to be able to make decisions within that barrier?

>> DAVID HOFF: I think that is really important.  I think your point about doing a deep dive on some of these things.  And really working with individuals in terms of the reality of a rights and what that means and responsibility.  And again, supported self-advocacy, self-determination efforts, and helping them understand what that all means.  And it's nuanced.  And again, there is attitudinal areas and societal barriers.  And frankly, there are personal barriers.  There are things that we have skills and abilities of things that we can do well.  This is also where I think sometimes and somebody pointed it out in the chat I think people can have dreams and I think of a guy years ago we supported him and worked with, he wanted to work on radio.  His goal was to work on radio.  I actually know a little bit about radio.  It is a really tough field to get a job in.  And a tough field to get in the door and make a living at.  So there was this discussion about it's his dream so we need to make it happen.  

And I'm like, that's great, let's not dismiss that dream but let's also look at other options that may fulfill his interest in radio and we don't dismiss that dream out of hand.  But there's also a reality in terms of limitations about what might be available.  So it's not denying his choice as much as figuring out what are the alternatives but while we continue to pursue that dream.  Also, again, I want to spend a few minutes talking about why this matters before we get into some of the practical stuff.  We will get there, I promise.  Some of this, hopefully, is obvious.  It's the right thing for people.  People have the right to self-determination, self-advocacy, it's about person centered planning.  If it's person centered that means that they have choices and decisions at the center of the client process.  All of those things that are fundamental to our field, that are core values to our field in 2020.  It's the right thing.  It is not only the right thing.  Our good old government says it is the law.  

U.S. Department of Justice on the screen here you see their guidance and if you look at this guidance closely in terms of homestead they are very clear that people with disabilities may have limited opportunities for choices and see their life and therefore they are fundamental steps which we will talk about in a few minutes that will be taken to ensure that people have an informed choice.  People have a right to informed choice.  Under the workforce innovation opportunity act for many years the rehabilitation act has spoken about folks have a right to informed choice.  And also, under Section 511 which are varied limitations on minimum wage which I want to get into details there are a lot of discussion about people have an informed choice about working in the community.  So it's regarded by the workplace innovation but specifically the rehabilitation expert also come the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services which is a lot of geeky stuff but that is what funds a lot of what DDS does as well as services with people with disabilities.  And throughout the regulations they talk about the fact that people with disabilities have a right to informed choice.  

So again, we need to recognize this is both the right thing but is also frankly legally required.  So the five steps for informed choice and employment are these.  Entities actually came from the U.S. Department of Justice guidance but they are also best practice.  We will do a deep dive into all five of these in if humans.  Number one, people should be provided information about the benefits of working in an integrated setting.  It starts with providing information.  But information is not enough.  We also should be facilitating visits or their expenses of integrated settings.  So we should be going out and trying things in the community.  Number 3, peer-to-peer discussions.  That individuals and families should have opportunities to talk to each other and talk about employment.  And talk about their experiences.  Number 4, if there are issues that are identified, challenges, objections, those should be identified.  And those should be addressed any way possible.  You may not address them that day but they should be addressed over time and then this is that not a one and done thing.  If someone says I don't want to work right now.  I don't want to work in the community or right now is not the right time for me for maybe very good reasons that decision should be revisited and we should look at it again and decide so it's not a one and done and is very much an evolutionary process and we will talk about that in a few minutes.  So I want to take about a three-minute break.  

So grab a cup of coffee or you need to use the restroom and we will come back for the second half and we will dive into the details of this.  Give me three minutes.  Lara, you may want to stop the recording. I am back.  Lara, did you want to start the recording?  Comments or questions before we get going with the second half?  Any comments or questions?  Let's dive into the details.  So first off, Step 1, and I would love your feedback on this.  Provide information about the benefits and working with community.  What kind of information should be provided?  And how should it be provided?  Any ideas regarding this?  Any thoughts about how do we provide this information?  Anybody want to share?  And what information to side?  We will talk about the benefits of working.  I will give folks a second to type.  And maybe just to get the conversation going a little bit, and obvious one is that if you work that your money, you have more choices.  That is one.  Opportunities to expand your skills.  Build new skills.  Have new relationships.  People talked earlier about fulfilling their dreams or a sense of fulfillment, a sense of accomplishment.  

Other things along those lines, other benefits?  Increased independence, obviously, is a piece of this. Competence and dependence.  Volunteering a great option to start off with.  We will talk about those financial considerations, opportunities for career inclusion.  And Nathan, thank you for commenting how it should be provided.  In an individualized way in terms of real-world present because and one of the biggest benefits of the social aspects of working in the community.  So honestly, customize it to how people take in information.  So I think it is important and I think part of it can be, frankly, for example, showing people visuals, showing people different things, talking about their own life and what do they want out of like.  And again, this is not necessarily something that we do separately from everything else.  It's not like today is our informed choice conversation about employment.  

It's this gets incorporated into person centered planning and discovery and all of these principles are part of that.  But it should be individualized.  And we should be doing it in a way that a person can relate to.  So it's important that we talk about it.  And I think it needs to be consistently messaged.  We might want to address [indiscernible by captioner] challenges but it really should be work about work is beneficial, work in the community is about what adults do in all of that.  And again, we start by providing information.  Facilitating visits or other experiences in employment settings.  So we need to think about what type of experiences there might be.  How do we ensure quality experiences or that the experiences are of quality and are sufficient.  And also, we need to help individuals process what they learn.  And Denise, you noted about volunteering.  What other ways can we help people get experience in the community?  Other thoughts about this?  Forgetting experience?  Think about job exploration and how do we get people exposed to community settings?  Thoughts on that?  Job tours, that is a big one.  And I know to hear about the importance of lots of different experiences.  Again, we don't have three places that we have people tour.  

First off start with where are their interests?  And again, having worked with folks with very limited experience I will tell you one thing sometimes you have to do is getting people out trying different things, touring different businesses, because if they don't have a sense of what they want to do.  And again, we have seen all this, probably, everybody wants to work at McDonald's or Burger King for this is the one place that they go that makes them happy.  Maybe start with that but let's get beyond that.  Let's make sure we are exposing people to lots of different work environments.  Obviously, based on their interest and dreams but maybe go beyond that and say maybe test out and see other places that they never even thought of.  So it really should be as expensive as possible.  Career and job fairs.  We are in a virtual environment so it's not the same as going out there.  But all of these things.  Informational interviews, job tours, career fairs, et cetera.  

So she -- we should be thinking about how do we have people job shadowing and again, none of this is going to make up for the fact that people may have limited past work experience but if we get them out there and trying a bunch of different things than the third bullet here is also what we need to also [indiscernible by captioner] working with peoples hobbies is a good place to start.  But we need to help people process what they learn.  So it's not a matter of going out there and saying what did you think?  Did you like it?  Did you not like it?  But really doing basic career counseling.  What did you like?  What did you enjoy about it?  Let's go through the list here in terms of where their particular tasks you really enjoy?  Did you like the people?  Did you like the physical environment?  All of those things we should be doing with folks as part of basic career counseling.  It's not just if did you like it or not.  

We also went to look at people in terms of particularly folks who may not be able to express themselves.  But they are going to pick up themselves or we are going to pick up as professionals how engaged are they in activities?  Are they able to perform tasks on that job site?  Doesn't really seem to interest them or is there a lack of interest?  All of those things will be really important.  It's part of a variety of experiences, making sure the quality, but making sure we have the opportunity to also really talk to them about what did they learn?  Briana noted one step we often skip or don't take into account is introducing folks to a career path trajectory versus what you want to do.  The vast majority of people need to work to build skills.  Often in nonpreferred jobs as they work towards more of a group work I think that is a good point, Briana.  Two points there.  A lot of us took our jobs because we knew somebody or we through an application and at the local store or whatever.  Just to get expanse.  And I think that is an important point that we have to cancel people on your first job is not your last job.  We all have to gain experience and we learn so much just by being into a work setting.  Again, people have the right to choose where they were.  They should be making those decisions.  We shouldn't be making them on the behalf but also counseling them that this is just a start.  

The second part that I would say is that we also need to affirm that by exit people having a career [indiscernible by captioner].  Just because I started working at a retail store that we also are going back and think maybe this is not what you want to do for life but this as at least a starting point and let's go back and think of this as a career journey.  And it's a whole other discussion but part of this also how do we help people build skills and abilities over time to make sure that they can move forward on their careers?  Thinks that point.  Peer-to-peer discussions.  I would love to hear from folks if you are doing this, how you are doing this.  And we talk about peer to peer it is a matter of not only individuals with disabilities but also family to family.  Any thoughts about this?  Had people done this?  To be quite honest, I would love to people that are doing this right and left.  I think this [indiscernible by captioner] something we are not doing enough of.  And I would say one resource that you might want to think about in terms of peer-to-peer discussions you cannot only connect with them as mass advocates standing strong.  

We have a great new website.  One thing I would like to say is identifying individuals and piers coming out to identify the expenses.  I think it's important to see who is available to talk to people who have not reject.  For example, if you are a teacher are the students who are now working in the community may be have graduated, can they come back and chat with individuals either as a group or one to one or maybe both.  Similarly, if you are working with adults.  Again, are the people that have been successful in the committee can they come back and share their experience is?  I think what is really important about these peer-to-peer discussions whether it is individuals or families is talking about some of the concerns they have about working.  Talking about how they had to overcome some of those.  Talking about how it was a process to get where they were.  It's really important to share that.  

So John is noting that we have soft skills folks program the individuals participate while working job development task with specialists and when a purchase make is a job we had to them come back and share their success stories.  Have them come back and share and how it's going.  And I think also, again, fortunately in this age visuals can be really powerful.  So people can share pictures of them at the job, videos of them at the job, things like that can be powerful as well.  I can talk all day, you've probably figured that out over the last there.  But me as a professional talking is not going to be nearly as powerful as a per talking to a peer and family talking to families because we will talk about them since he a second and families can be sometimes really challenging.  Somebody already noted that.  In terms of this topic that can be our greatest supporters.  But when family talks we know the family that can open up Isaac and see ways that we cannot necessarily do.  So again, think about this.  And it can't just be a one-time thing but think about it.  Are you having group events were people -- peers can come and talk.  And they come in for one to one discussions?  Think about things like you've got a family that you're struggling with in terms of support for their family member in terms of employment.  See if you can find somebody to set up a time that they can have a one-to-one discussion with folks about employment.  Similarly with individuals you are supporting as well.  

So it doesn't necessarily always need to be in a large group setting.  In fact, I would not recommend that always.  It can be helpful in terms of panels and discussions but sometimes went to one discussions where they can have really honest conversations in ways that may not necessarily be able to happen in a large group setting because of groupthink, et cetera.  So think about lots of different ways for peer-to-peer discussions and it should be an ongoing crop -- process.  Also, identifying and addressing any concerns or objections raised by the individual or relevant decision-maker.  In the publication which we shared which is on our website there is a whole list of common objections.  If we had a little more time we would probably work through some of of those and brainstorm on them but I want to be conscious of time.  But it is important that if people have objections that we understand and acknowledge them.  The last thing that anybody wants to hear is that their objection or their concern is not valid.  Why do you think that?  That is wrong.  If you want to shut somebody down that is an easy way to do it.  Instead, we need to listen.  

Listing, hearing them, even if it is a different perspective than their own.  We need to at least acknowledge it.  Then identify strategies for addressing that.  So for example, in summary says benefits are an issue.  I can't work because of my public benefits.  Will be a good response to that?  Have you gotten benefits counseling?  Do you understand the details of benefits?  Can we get you an appointment with a benefit counselor or working assistance program?  Let's talk to those details.  Feel free to share even objections that you struggle with and see your program or services or school.  Feel free to share those in the chat or share those verbally if you have some that you are struggling with, we would like to hear them so we can brainstorm a little bit.  Another objection an obvious one, is safety.  And things like that can be open concerns.  Talk about how this is where the peer stuff can be helpful about people have been safe working in the community.  

And also, talking about what are the specific concerns you have about safety.  How do we make sure this can be addressed as part of working?  That is also important.  Again, people often have fears of failure or I am not sure I want to work.  Or the other one we often use to hear [indiscernible by captioner] in Massachusetts but we still have facility-based service is I will miss my friends if I am not here.  This is the place I feel safe and I really like the people here.  And those are extremely valid concerns and I think, again, as we address that part of that is okay.  We all evolve.  Your friends will still be here.  Let's figure out ways you can still have these relationships but you will meet new friends in the community.  And I think that this is sometimes using the analogy of we all move on in certain points of our life.  We move I'm from high school, we move I'm from college, we move on in different things and we are set for the friends that we left behind but we also have new relationships.  Again, I think being ready and the publication has a whole list of those and there are others, being ready with responses but do it in a way that people feel like they are heard and that those things can be addressed.  And you may not be able to address in the moment.  You may say it let's explore that.  Let's try out some things.  Let's come up with a list of action items in order to address these things.  And figure out how we can respond.  And I think the other conversation that is really important to have in many cases is we are not talking about working tomorrow.  

So let's not get all worked up about what -- the what is.  Let's get out there and try some things and see what happens in let's start!  And take it one step at a time.  I think that is also a really important message.  This is a thing that is really important under Section 511 they talk about every year a decision not to work in the community and not to work and must be revisited once a year.  But again, this is not a one and done decision.  You need to regularly visit this decision about to work and as I noted try some strategies to help inform the individual.  Consider is employment an option?  Let's start trying out some things.  Let's start doing some interfacial interviews.  Let's start doing some chores in the community.  Let's start visiting worksites.  Let's start some job shouting and let's see how it goes.  If you don't like it, that is fine.  Just lower risk.  Staff will be with you.  Don't worry about.  Let's try this topic but this should be regularly revisited because we are all evolving over time in terms of our thinking and in terms of our perspectives.  And as we go through this process it is important that we document it's.  

Now, in certain cases documentation is required like under Section 511 if somebody is earning minimum wage and they go through the [indiscernible by captioner] there is very clear documentation requirements in the federal law but we should always be documenting in terms of case notes, in terms of here is the steps we are taking in terms of employment exploration, particularly if someone says I right now don't want to go work in the community.  Okay.  Let's document what those concerns and issues are and how they will be addressed.  What is the action plan?  There should be documentation procedures like we always have, hopefully, about what we are doing here to explore employment and also how we are trying to address any concerns that have arisen.  Again, this is a piece from the Minnesota Department of Human Services which I will talk about a little more at the end.  It's a great resource that was sent to you but I really like thinking about this process of deciding about working and there's a thing called process this change that was start of a pre-contemplative state park at them.  People may say I don't want to work on thinking about working or am not sure.  And contemplative stage is okay, I'm starting to consider this.  

I'm starting to consider my options.  Then preparatory is okay that is where we start those early expirations, we start thinking about and starting to discovering out in the community doing all the things we talked about.  And searching is when we are actually looking for a job.  And then we may get to a point were actually working but as we spoke about already a little bit about Briana also brought this up about career development.  So the first job is not the last topic so a person may be satisfied with their job but they may want to change that job.  So that may be part of this process.  But we need to recognize that this is a development of process and that it is going to change over time, particularly in some cases people get older, gain more work experiences, et cetera.  And we have to guide people through these various stages that will take time, sometimes.  It's going to take literally, this doesn't happen over time it can take months to get to this point.  But our job is to felicitate the movements through the stages.  And also need to recognize the same thing is that choices more than just if whether you not you want to work in the community but where do you want to work?  What kind of job do you want?  

What kind of places you want to work?  What hours do you want?  What is your schedule?  What kind of transportation do you want to use?  What is available?  You want to change jobs?  There are lots and lots of factors about a job that are part of informed choice that we should be recognizing that people have the right to make these choices in and informed way.  So it's not just about do you want to work but all of these other variables as well.  And we covered some of this already but it's really important that we make sure that we are recognizing that each of these elements should be part of the informed choice process.  This is one that often comes up.  Is choosing a less preferred option okay?  A person says I want to sit home and watch TV or a want to work in a group enclave, I don't want an individual job in a community.  Is that okay?  I don't know if anybody has any thoughts on that?  Want to share any thoughts?  Shocking, but I might have an opinion on this.  If you had folks who said I want to do this do we reinforce that?  

Kylie, as long as they have all the facts then yes.  Exactly.  I think if we are going to respect informed choice ultimately respect peoples decisions.  I think this is part of the deal.  [indiscernible by captioner] but I need to respect and we gone through a good process of informed choice?  And if somebody is going to choose alternatives that that necessarily the thing we are aligned with in terms of our program and services and we and believe in employment first, we believe people should work in the community and individual jobs but that's okay.  I think the other thing is we just said this is not a one and done decision.  So this is what they have chosen for now and maybe into the future let's maybe figure out how to choose other alternatives in the future but we do need to respect people’s rights.  And revisit it often as Marc noted.  Absolutely.  But we need to respect that.  I defined often, too often, when I work with services and programs that revisiting often does not occur.  

And there is not when somebody says I don't want to work right now, all of that stuff we just talked about, maybe some lower strategies, may be trying things, and just working people through that triangle, through that pyramid of different stages is really important to continue that.  The other thing about informed choice and this is one of the challenges we have oftentimes is as much as possible everyone needs to be on the same page.  And what I mean by that is a staff.  Are there staff and authority figures in people’s lives?  Family members?  Guardians?  Everybody as much as possible needs to be on the same page.  I also recognize fully that it is easier said than done in some cases.  But what is important within your own sources as much as you have control over that people are getting consistent messages from staff?  

About working, the importance of work, the benefits of work, the positivity of work, because the last thing you need -- and frankly, funders need to be in the same boat.  Case managers, MRC, [indiscernible by captioner] case managers they need to be in the same boat about the positivity of work.  Because if you are saying one thing and something else is saying something else it gets really challenging to be on the same page in terms of trying to work people through a process of informed choice in implement.  So let's talk about family spirit and the role of family.  First off, we need to start with understanding the role, what is the role in the person’s life?  Are the legal guardian?  They maybe or they may not be.  What goal do they have in people’s lives?  I think I always feel really important that even when I disagree with families you have to respect where they are coming from.  This is their loved one.  This is someone they care for.  And they have a role to play.  

So as you are doing with families as you are moving along to keep them informed about each step as you are moving forward on employment and expiration process.  As concerns come up make sure to respond to them in a respectful way.  Again, we need peer to peer efforts can be helpful.  And just remind them it is about exploring options.  We are just export options.  Your loved one, sister, brother, child is not going to the worker job tomorrow but let's take at least a four some options.  It's about the individuals choices and preferences.  That it is about those I think that is always a good argument.  Don't you want what your child wants?  Don't you want what is best for them?  I think this can be -- it is a tricky process, it is not always easy and I think we just have to be thoughtful and do our best to develop strong relationships with families where they trust us.  Now again, I'm obscene talking about him as that may be challenged and we also have other families that are wonderful that are really supportive and want their family member to work.  Angela supportive of it.  But it can be, as we know, a mixed bag so we had to be thoughtful in how we approach family spirit also, in terms of guardians the rules of guardians.  I have heard the sometimes.  The Guardian said that they can't go to work.  And particularly talking about a legal guardian, somebody is not a family member.  

And that actually is not appropriate for a guardian in terms of what the role is supposed to be.  But first we need to understand what are the parameters of guardianship?  Guardianship a person is adult and has a legal guardian one of the premise of that guardianship?  What are they responsible for and not responsible for?  What is the relationship with the individual?  If it's a family member [indiscernible by captioner] versus just a legal guardian that is not related to the person and have a limited role in there like.  And again, as you are moving forward on this it's important to involve the Guardian and advocate for the support of informed choice.  But if you look at the ethics and see terms of guardianship and the standards of practice that are available from the national guardianship association which we have a link to in our packet, in our publication.  It is very clear in terms of the standards of practice that guardians are there to support individual with their dreams, with their choices, the guardian is not there to control the person’s life.  

Yes, they have legal authority, absolutely, and some legal decision-making, but they are to support the person as best they can and with due respect there are some wonderful guardians out there.  But there are others that misread their role and don't really understand that they are there to support the person.  They are not there to say yes or no.  But I think it is important that we are going to work with guardians that we develop good relationships with them and help them understand this is about the best interest of the person.  But I think looking through the standards of practice, which we excerpt in our publication a little bit, can be really helpful in terms of just understanding guardians at least should be coming from.  I think it's okay for us to push back in a diplomatic way about this person has a right to their own decisions in like.  And the Guardian is not completely in charge of everything they do.  And it's ultimately about what the person wants and how we best support them in a way that is respectful, that keep him safe, and all that.  Nobody wants to see a person get hurt or be in danger but they should have the right to make the choices and live their dreams.  Also, when we think about the role of professionals in informed choice.  

What is our role?  Are we there to recommend things?  To guide?  To advise?  To facilitate?  And this goes back to the thing I spoke about really urgently on in terms of when we first started this webinar about what is our appropriate role?  I think we need to be very, very careful and thoughtful in terms of recommending guiding or advising.  Even when folks are like what you think?  We need to come back with let's work you through the decision-making process.  Yes, we can say here is what I've seen, here is what I'm observing, here is what you're good at, here is what I think your interests are.  And sometimes when people make decisions we are allowed to do all of those things in our professional rules but it should be about facilitating a process.  And really being careful about getting into the I think you should do this, I think you should do that.  All of that.  We have a professional role to play in this but it's a fine line and as I said earlier we need to probably be a little more hesitant as much as we want to give our own ideas and to set people up.  I think you should do this for your job.  

That is not what people want to hear.  It's about how do I work you through a process so you can make that decision on your own?  For smack and as the slide says the role of the professional is to create and facilitate the ideal circumstances so people can make their own choices and decisions.  So hopefully we are creating an environment through all those five steps that we talked about and creating an environment where the person feels empowered and self-directed and can advocate so that they can make their own decisions and choices.  So we are there two craters ideal circumstances.  We are not there to make decisions on peoples behalf or have a whole list of alternately come up with the decision about what they should do with their life.  That is their job.  Our job is to create those circumstances so that that will happen.  I'm curious about peoples comments on that.  I would like to spend the time here, should staff remain neutral about employment?  Should they say it's okay, if you don't want to work, that is fine.  Is that okay?  I am curious, what do people think?  Any thoughts on that?  Some he says I don't want to work, I don't want to have a job.  To say that's okay, that your decision?  Comments on that?  I will keep an eye on the comment box.

Briana, I think it's okay to talk about self-sufficiency and work through things that people want to do.  Encourage positive points about having a job.  Engage in discussion about the different reasons behind the decision not to work and explore them.  Encouraging the individual to think about the benefits.  All of those I think are really important.  We say this in the publication but I feel like if we work -- first off we are working in an environment certainly under DDS but also in general about employment first.  That employment in the community is considered a priority and considered the preferred option.  I think if we work in these programs that are about helping people get jobs in the community I think it's okay to say to folks I think you should work perk that is part of the deal.  That's why we're here.  We are encouraging, and a bit can make you go to work.  That would be disrespectful and really can't do that and it's also violating people's rights.  But my job is to make sure that you see the benefits of working and if we do everything we can possible to see if you have the opportunity work in the community.  

So I don't, friendly, think -- I've seen staff that is their decision not to work and that is okay so we need to respect that.  And again, I could have this debate all day with people but I'm like no, our Commonwealth of Massachusetts we are going to at least working in the community is the preferred option and if I work for a program that is funded by that agency and I am working for a service in a program that is focused on employment than our job -- in a positive way, not in a punitive way, but in a positive way encourage people to work.  I think that is okay.  And Molly talks about positively impacts health, mental and physical health perk I don't think we talk about that enough about the health benefits of working.  My colleague says if you think working is risky, trying to stay at home [indiscernible by captioner] broke.  That is not a way to live or something to that effect.  Thank you for those.  Also, we need to think about the skills that people need to have, not just for you folks here today, but in general if your school or adult service program, wherever you are, we need to be skilled at listening.  Which is a lifelong effort on my behalf.  I don't come from a family of good listeners.  

We like to talk rather than listen.  I guess that is why am presenting rather than listening today.  We need to be skilled at listening and really hearing people.  We also need to be culturally aware and I mean that in multiple ways and common seat regarding choice making.  It's all of the stuff we are talking about today is your company.  But different cultures have different -- think about choice making, individual choice making different ways perks of being aware of the cultural that somebody comes from in terms of decision-making.  It's really fascinating and this is a deeper dive on a whole other conversation, but different cultures are much more in terms of the role of the family, the role of parents, and the role of children, that all of these different things it's really important that we recognize where is this person coming from?  What is there culture in terms of choice making?  In terms of independence and all of that.  Also, we need to recognize that we have values, we have baggage, and we need to recognize that sometimes we need to recognize that that influence us.  Our personal experience, professional experiences, I grew up in a world where there was virtually nobody with a disability in a classroom.  So things like that.  Some of our experiences as we have spoken about.  So we need to recognize that that is going to influence us and sometimes we need to recognize that that is enclosed us.  We need to also the skills to really facilitate the empowerment of individuals.  

To direct the process perk and again, that is a real skill, particularly for folks who are limited verbal skills, limited communication skills, or whatever that might be.  That we really have to make every effort to empower them.  And the act staff that are empowered, not family members that are impaired, it's individuals are empowered to direct the process perk and prickly, we have to be good in managing conflict in a positive way.  Redirecting, listening, acknowledging concerns.  All of that.  There are going to be some conflict in terms of it sometimes.  We have to be good at managing that.  And also and that might be a matter of people saying this is what I want for my family member and say what is a family member want?  Let's work that through.  Or an individual want something that is not reasonable in terms of life choices and things like that.  So conflict resolution is an important part in a positive way.  And also, what we say and how we say it is really, really important.  So again, in our guide we have a few samples of that.  The things that we have to be very careful about are things like steps that statements that can help with choice.  

Why do you want to do that?  More of like what led you to that decision?  What led to that interest?  Talk about your past experiences.  How did they go?  What did you learn from them?  What did you really like about those experiences?  All of those things can be really important.  The statements that can hinder choice perk I hear this all of the time and I will share a personal expense.  My parents, may they rest in peace, I love them dearly, something they used always to say just as kids is what you want to do that for?  And is like talk about entering your choice.  Is really a statement that I would never say too much on new paragraph I never have, I have three kids brick things like why do you want to do that?  Or I don't think you should do that.  Or are too happy with the way life is?  We can make statements sometimes well intended but we've got to realize we have a lot of influence in people’s lives sometimes so we have to be very thoughtful about the statements we are making and not making.  Or things like in terms of just you tried that and it didn't work.  So again, also back to the [indiscernible by captioner] earlier.  Sometimes it's okay.  We might think something is risky, you might think the person might not do well at it, but as I said part of our job is to help people take risks and sometimes they might fail and that is okay.  

Briana notes -- a couple comments.  Sometimes I think we shelter people from the realities of how Social Security end of the benefits work and can be affected positively or negatively.  I think educating folks about how the benefits are something that can change or go away in difficult economic times can also help them gain better understanding of making work and career choices.  He needs to be an ongoing conversation as part of the choice making.  It's not a one-time conversation.  The basic message and see my view should be yes, benefits are complicated.  Yes, we respect where you are coming from but there are ways that benefits can be managed to come that you can go to work.  And also noting you still chose to work to a school district they called me a box many young folks didn't know they were getting money through the mail from social security which was not the norm because no one talk to them about putting financial depends.  In certain cultures on certain communities it is an issue.  It's like I get a check every month and that is the way life is and recognizing that we need to -- those are some culture expectations are family expectations that we sometimes have to deal with.  And thank you, Nathan, about noting about able accounts.  We have four minutes left.  Let me wrap up here.  In terms of our programs how we operate our programs.  We need a culture, as I said early on that encourages informed choice.  That is a constant thing.  

That that is a value and that we operationalize it.  That we have a way of supporting individuals, have communication challenges and other support needs that we are able to do that.  That we talked about experiences that we are really making sure problematically that individuals have a lot of variety of experiences and a lot of work settings that they are exposed to that that is part of our core programmatic structure.  That we also have procedures into place that document the process of decision-making and that as we said, we have clear policies that we are going to periodically review, the decision not to [indiscernible by captioner] this is something I think that if I was running a program and running us will just ignore running a state I think -- and again, [indiscernible by captioner] I think that should be regulated.  That we at least once a year during the planning process that employment is discussed and that a decision not to work is revisited.  And also just revisiting for is the person working currently?  What are the options?  Let's talk about career [indiscernible by captioner].  That should be a standard part of any planning process.  

I did want to touch base briefly about informed choice during COVID.  Because we are going to be dealing with us for a little while longer.  These are some of the factors that we need to think about in terms of COVID.  And these are not easy decisions because what is the risk of some to go to work themselves and others that they live with?  Lots of families are making these decisions every single day.  What steps can be taken by the employer to protect the workers?  Other steps that are in place?  I think in Massachusetts we are better shape than a lot of places in terms of that.  What is the impact of the persons employment situation if they choose not to work this time?  Do they need money?  Do they need which is?  To decisions that are lot of people are making.  What level of support does a person need to work in the current environment how can those be provided?  Is transportation available?  And then thinking about the overall decisions of working versus not working.  The person, and the job, if they leave a job perk is that going to have long-term impact in term of the career?  

In terms of future prospects for employment?  [indiscernible by captioner] and we have a publication which we have sent to you.  On working through COVID-19 a guide for informed decision-making.  You can find a link to these on these -- our main website but it's part of the stairs of obligations that Larry and I and several of our colleagues worked on.  I have one minute so it's a good thing that this slide came up to wrap up.  I want to share a few resources.  Again, I will double check to make sure that these all got sent you.  There is a link to this in error informed choice publication, a really nice piece from the Minnesota Department of human services.  A toolkit to support informed choice and implement perk take a look at that.  Also, I like this piece from the Virginia Department for aging and rehabilitative services which is the equivalent of MRC about supporting informed choices about implement perk I love the graphics that are part of this publication.  If we had more time I would go further detail.  Definitely were take a look at.  And again, these are complements to our publication also, I really like this form from the state of New Jersey which is my native state.  And I think this is their state form but I think this is something to take and grab and maybe think about using within your services.  Because it talks about people in terms of a pathway to employment and there are three sections if you look at more closely.  

People who are already employed, people who aren't currently working, and it takes you through a very much informed choice process in terms of making decisions about implement.  So I recommend taking a look at this and like I was say but everything [indiscernible by captioner] take this, make your own but I really like the way they have put this out as a step-by-step process.  And I want to end with this quote from Max Perez from Green Mountain self-advocates.  Max says "presume competence."  And what we mean by presume competence is when you meet a person with a disability you assume they are capable.  Don't assume that someone can or cannot do things but make sure they tell you what they need for accommodations and give them the chance to be in the driver's seat."  So much we have talked about is putting people in the driver seat and helping them make informed choices about employment and helping them live their dreams and helping them to really understand what employment is all about so that they can really make decisions and that they are in the driver seat.  

That is it.  We are at the end of time.  Thank you so much for your attention today.  Any last questions?  I will make sure -- I will double check on the emails, I did that early this one.  I will make sure that you get all of the handouts if you registered, I will make sure you got it got sent to perk I will double check.  Any last questions?  Comments?  Those is a lot but I hope the information and details we sent and resources were helpful.  Thanks, everybody.  Be well.  Stay well, stay safe.  I appreciate your time.

[ end of webinar ]